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greetings sky watchers this is Ryan

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Sprague the host of the summer in the

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skies podcast and I want you to join me

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at alien Con alien Con lands in

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Baltimore Maryland on November 9th 10th

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and 11th explore the unexplained with

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your favorite ancient aliens

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contributors UFO researchers and stars

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from hit sci-fi and SCI fact television

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shows and films I'll personally be

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giving my solo presentation and I'll

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also be joining my good friend and

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colleague Jason McClellan of rogue

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planet to moderate and take part in

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panel discussions throughout the weekend

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it's going to be a fun and informative

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weekend for families serious researchers

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and all curious minds alike and right

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now you can get an exclusive somewhere

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in the skies discount on all tickets by

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visiting the alien con comm slash

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register and using the code skies at

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checkout we hope to see you at the

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Baltimore Convention Center in November

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and now onto the show to hackers a

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decade apart

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they've been touted as two of the

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biggest computer hacks of all time into

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military and government computers

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collectively causing millions of dollars

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in security breaches and damage one of

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which could have seemingly caused a

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world war and what were both hackers

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trying to find top-secret information on

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UFOs

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this is somewhere in the skies the

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Branzburg

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[Music]

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in 2001 gary mckinnon a systems

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administrator in the UK made

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international headlines when it was

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discovered that he had breached the

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security defenses of NASA the Defense

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Department and several military computer

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networks after months and months of

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hacking he'd found his way in as some of

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the most secretive databases in the

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United States his goal to find evidence

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of suppressed technologies and

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information about UFOs with alarmingly

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weak security McKinnon sifted through

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digital data looking for anything that

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stood out amongst ambiguous images of

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possible space anomalies and convoluted

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programs something caught his attention

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it was a spreadsheet that while not

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directly involving UFOs proved that some

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sort of secret space program was being

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carried out in the most elusive of ways

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I found an Excel spreadsheet that was

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actually cold or at least an in the

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heading of the column it said

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non-terrestrial officers that's like my

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buddy god that's just with ranks and

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names and then a separate sheet with

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tabs for material transfer between ships

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but these ships were called USS whatever

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in USS vampires Navy and I think the

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Navy the Navy do a lot of space stuff

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upon viewing this spreadsheet McKinnon

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was able to capture an image of it he

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continued to dig but this would perhaps

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be the most compelling data he'd come

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across he logged out and decided to end

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the night playing a computer game

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thinking his actions had gone unnoticed

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like so many times before but just as

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he'd fallen asleep a knock on the door

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changed the rest of his life very but

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it's late for a few hours and next thing

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I know there's someone think I McKinnon

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Gary McKinnon reporting me I woke up to

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find a

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active whatever he was from the national

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high tech crime unit saying you're under

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arrest for while she be said hacking

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into NASA first thing we did was a

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massive search they searched but

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girlfriend they searched me they

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searched house they took away the

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computers it's not just our advisor took

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away all the computers I was fixing

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computers for people as well they took

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away all of those after a long time I've

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got back my friends machines and clients

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machines that was fixing I got them back

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within a few months they never gave me

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back my hard drives cuz they have

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evidence on them well I got a copy of

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the non-terrestrial officers spreadsheet

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which was encrypted but I stupidly told

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them the password I just fessed up to

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everything because they said all you

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only get six months are probably not

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even that you'll get community service

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you know you'll be fine

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but everything wasn't fine after his

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arrest in the UK the United States

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military and government soon got

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involved having been the actual victims

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of the hacking they claimed that Gary

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McKinnon had breached NASA the US Army

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Navy Air Force and Department of Defense

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causing damages of around 700 thousand

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dollars in one instance he's alleged to

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have deleted files at a United States

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Naval Weapons Station shortly after the

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9/11 attacks rendering the bases entire

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network of more than 300 machines

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inoperable these claims which McKinnon

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and many others have argued are patently

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false and ridiculous and they would

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cause such a stir that the u.s. didn't

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only want McKinnon to pay for the

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damages they wanted him extradited and

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to face the u.s. criminal courts this

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extradition became the focus of many

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news outlets prompting both prime

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minister at the time David Cameron and

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former US President Barack Obama to

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weigh in on the extradition and the

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issue of cybersecurity

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I mean clearly there's a discussion

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going on between the British and the

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Americans about this and I don't want to

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prejudice those discussions we

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completely understand that Gary McKinnon

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stands accused of a very important and

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significant

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in terms of hacking into vital databases

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and nobody denies that that is an

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important crime that has to be

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considered but I have had conversations

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with the US Ambassador as well as

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raising it today with with the president

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about this issue and I hope the way

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through can be can be fine one of the

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things that David and I discussed was

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the increasing challenge that we're

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going to face as a consequence of the

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internet and the need for us to

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cooperate extensively on issues of cyber

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security we had a brief discussion about

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the fact that although there may still

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be efforts to send in spies and try to

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obtain state secrets through traditional

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Cold War methods the truth of the matter

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is these days where we're going to see

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enormous amounts of vulnerability when

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it comes to information is going to be

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through these kind of breaches and in

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our information systems so we take this

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very seriously as a dark cloud loomed

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over MacKinnon's head for over ten years

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it became clear that he wasn't well in

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fact it came to light that MacKinnon

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suffered depression and also from

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Asperger's syndrome extradition and a

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long judicial process in the United

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States would multiply his suffering

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tenfold for what many considered minor

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crimes many human rights organizations

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protested the extradition and McKinnon

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remained in limbo soon a new prime

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minister Theresa May would take office

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and would finally take a hard stance on

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the Gary McKinnon extradition process in

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2012 she made a final decision and

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presented it to the House of Lords since

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I came into office the sole issue on

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which I have been required to make a

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decision is whether mr. McKinnon's

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extradition to the United States would

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breach his human rights mr. McKinnon is

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accused of serious crimes but there is

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also no doubt that he is seriously ill

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he has Asperger's syndrome and suffers

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from depressive illness the legal

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question before

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me is now whether the extent of that

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illness is sufficient to preclude

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extradition as the house would expect

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I have very carefully considered the

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representations made on mr. McKinnon's

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behalf including from a number of

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clinicians and I have taken extensive

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legal advice after careful consideration

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of all of the relevant material I have

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concluded that mr. McKinnon's

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extradition would give rise to such a

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but a decision to extradite would be

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incompatible with mr. McKinnon's human

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rights I have therefore withdrawn the

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extradition order against mr. McKinnon

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after this decision which the US was

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clearly not in favor of all charges

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against McKinnon were dropped an

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outstanding extradition warrant remains

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for him in the US but it doesn't seem to

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bother McKinnon much he remains safe and

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secure in the UK having founded his own

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computer company and putting the

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decade-long nightmare behind him

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refusing interviews to speak about the

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event and attempting to move on with his

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life although this UFO hack was widely

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publicized

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it's lesser known that it actually

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wasn't the first major breach of

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sensitive material by civilian looking

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for information on UFOs for that we need

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to look a little over a decade prior to

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a hacker who like McKinnon suffered the

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slings and arrows of surveillance

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threats and possible persecution for his

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curious actions at a young age British

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born Matthew Bevin was perceived as

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their typical adolescent bullied at

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times by his peers he searched to find a

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community in which to fit with him and

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like so many loners he found the world

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of computers to be his refuge he would

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spend his nights on a Commodore Amiga 12

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typing into different online forums this

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was back in the days of dial-up so

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naturally Bevins phone bill would have

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been astronomical but his first dive

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into the world of illegal activity came

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from a friend who offered Bevin a

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black-market program that would use

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tonation too for the phone companies

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into believing that no one was using the

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line

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surfing the net for free he soon tripped

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up on several bulletin boards dealing

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with UFOs as he began making online

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friends and digging deeper into the UFO

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topic he heard rumors of classified UFO

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FILES floating around the different

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systems some of them belonging to NASA

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and the military and soon Bevin went

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from being an outcast in the real world

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to being a hacking prodigy in cyberspace

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but his hacks would not go unnoticed in

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his soon landed him in the public eye

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good evening a computer hacker who

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caused a huge security scare in the

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United States has spoken for the first

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time about how he did it

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Matthew Bevan from Cardiff was acquitted

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on Friday of tampering with top-secret

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American Air Force computers but he's

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accused the American military of

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terrifying incompetence known by his

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handle coochi Bevins first major hack in

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1994 was that of a program called flex

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force level execution this was at Rome

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laboratories located on Griffith Air

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Force Base in upstate New York as he

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chiseled his way deeper into the system

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he realized that was just a few more

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days he had the potential to

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single-handedly launch missiles from the

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base wisely he decided to veer his focus

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away from warfare and concentrated

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solely on trying to find any information

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related to highly advanced aircraft

278
00:12:31,790 --> 00:12:29,070
searching for space related activity he

279
00:12:33,770 --> 00:12:31,800
first looked at Goddard Space Center at

280
00:12:36,380 --> 00:12:33,780
the time it was just another machine you

281
00:12:38,450 --> 00:12:36,390
know I'm looking through it

282
00:12:41,030 --> 00:12:38,460
two things about space stations and

283
00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:41,040
about artificial intelligence battle

284
00:12:47,210 --> 00:12:44,010
simulators and battleplanners and you

285
00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:47,220
know you meaning things about statistics

286
00:12:50,300 --> 00:12:49,770
from accuracy of missiles during the

287
00:12:52,550 --> 00:12:50,310
Gulf War

288
00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:52,560
now this is at a time when none of that

289
00:12:58,040 --> 00:12:55,490
was public you know you've got people

290
00:12:59,900 --> 00:12:58,050
saying you know 80% accuracy we send

291
00:13:02,180 --> 00:12:59,910
missiles down a big fleet down the

292
00:13:04,100 --> 00:13:02,190
streets so they thought you know and I

293
00:13:07,010 --> 00:13:04,110
really think it's saying our 12 14

294
00:13:08,150 --> 00:13:07,020
percent accuracy and which I farted it

295
00:13:10,490 --> 00:13:08,160
at the time that would have been very

296
00:13:13,730 --> 00:13:10,500
very useful information to the press and

297
00:13:15,470 --> 00:13:13,740
but for me just a kid you know I'm just

298
00:13:17,510 --> 00:13:15,480
playing on these systems I'm going on

299
00:13:19,910 --> 00:13:17,520
it's not very interesting to me you know

300
00:13:22,430 --> 00:13:19,920
yeah there's some code here that

301
00:13:24,380 --> 00:13:22,440
suggests you can detonate nuclear

302
00:13:26,300 --> 00:13:24,390
weapons in it but I'm interested in that

303
00:13:29,150 --> 00:13:26,310
Ireland is looking for stuff like UFOs

304
00:13:32,210 --> 00:13:29,160
and any sort of conspiracies he began to

305
00:13:33,890 --> 00:13:32,220
download and copied dozens of files that

306
00:13:36,560 --> 00:13:33,900
he had found about space related

307
00:13:39,980 --> 00:13:36,570
technology but this didn't seem to be

308
00:13:42,140 --> 00:13:39,990
enough to satisfy Bevins appetite and he

309
00:13:45,050 --> 00:13:42,150
then shifted his focus to a base that

310
00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:45,060
held a hefty reputation for supposedly

311
00:13:51,830 --> 00:13:49,010
storing the wreckage of a downed UFO

312
00:13:54,770 --> 00:13:51,840
wright-patterson Air Force Base located

313
00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:54,780
near Dayton Ohio contain much lore

314
00:14:00,200 --> 00:13:57,090
within the confines of its secretive

315
00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:00,210
walls but this didn't stop Bevin from

316
00:14:05,450 --> 00:14:02,010
finding his way in through the digital

317
00:14:07,670 --> 00:14:05,460
backdoor after learning the Project Blue

318
00:14:10,100 --> 00:14:07,680
Book was created and housed in

319
00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:10,110
wright-patterson Bevin began searching

320
00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:13,050
endless files for anything that may have

321
00:14:19,340 --> 00:14:15,090
to do with the famous Roswell incident

322
00:14:21,170 --> 00:14:19,350
of 1947 as he continued digging he was

323
00:14:23,740 --> 00:14:21,180
surprised to discover that one of the

324
00:14:26,150 --> 00:14:23,750
system's accounts wasn't even

325
00:14:28,910 --> 00:14:26,160
password-protected this was almost

326
00:14:31,340 --> 00:14:28,920
becoming comical to Bevin as to how

327
00:14:34,070 --> 00:14:31,350
simple it was to get in almost like a

328
00:14:36,370 --> 00:14:34,080
game he was now playing to not get

329
00:14:40,300 --> 00:14:36,380
caught while eventually

330
00:14:43,630 --> 00:14:40,310
I was a runner oratories in New York and

331
00:14:45,700 --> 00:14:43,640
my Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio now

332
00:14:47,710 --> 00:14:45,710
the road maps were their main incidents

333
00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:47,720
they were the ones that the air force

334
00:14:52,990 --> 00:14:50,930
information warfare Center Office of

335
00:14:55,630 --> 00:14:53,000
Special Investigations you know they

336
00:14:57,340 --> 00:14:55,640
were the ones who were lucky that these

337
00:14:58,660 --> 00:14:57,350
machines at the time I'm breaking into

338
00:15:01,060 --> 00:14:58,670
them they're already they've got these

339
00:15:02,980 --> 00:15:01,070
guys in this building they're actually

340
00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:02,990
sitting around on this desk trying to

341
00:15:06,370 --> 00:15:04,610
work out who's breaking these machines

342
00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:06,380
and they see me coming and going and

343
00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:08,570
then they don't see me coming and going

344
00:15:11,620 --> 00:15:10,010
and then they see somebody else coming

345
00:15:13,630 --> 00:15:11,630
and going and there I am I'm actually

346
00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:13,640
looking through the programs they put in

347
00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:15,890
place to try and see if they can catch

348
00:15:20,470 --> 00:15:18,890
me so he's put some tracking things in

349
00:15:23,470 --> 00:15:20,480
it trying to catch me how I'm using you

350
00:15:25,540 --> 00:15:23,480
know you're thinking of what I know now

351
00:15:28,270 --> 00:15:25,550
the real world events you know these

352
00:15:30,670 --> 00:15:28,280
guys is supposedly up for 23 hours at a

353
00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:30,680
time and they're feeding themselves on

354
00:15:35,020 --> 00:15:33,170
burgers and the high caffeine coke and

355
00:15:36,730 --> 00:15:35,030
you know one of them pulls a gun out on

356
00:15:38,590 --> 00:15:36,740
the other one does it also stressed and

357
00:15:41,150 --> 00:15:38,600
worrying about accounting these these

358
00:15:44,310 --> 00:15:41,160
spies that they're sure unknown

359
00:15:48,570 --> 00:15:44,320
despite having it's bad you have carried

360
00:15:51,540 --> 00:15:48,580
on and I it's just a game it is

361
00:15:53,610 --> 00:15:51,550
literally just wargames it's it's all

362
00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:53,620
text on the screen it's not real you

363
00:15:58,710 --> 00:15:55,570
want to see anything you know that's

364
00:16:02,490 --> 00:15:58,720
where the hacking part of the problem

365
00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:02,500
it's just text there's no real but it

366
00:16:07,380 --> 00:16:05,890
was soon to become all too real as Bevan

367
00:16:09,990 --> 00:16:07,390
continued searching the wright-patterson

368
00:16:11,730 --> 00:16:10,000
files he found emails that different

369
00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:11,740
employees were sending back and forth

370
00:16:16,620 --> 00:16:14,050
about a certain aircraft that they had

371
00:16:17,990 --> 00:16:16,630
been developing diagrams should a

372
00:16:20,910 --> 00:16:18,000
prototype that seemed to use

373
00:16:23,009 --> 00:16:20,920
anti-gravity propulsion the technology

374
00:16:25,670 --> 00:16:23,019
theorized to propel many of the often

375
00:16:28,590 --> 00:16:25,680
silent UFOs throughout witness history

376
00:16:30,900 --> 00:16:28,600
with this speculative information

377
00:16:33,630 --> 00:16:30,910
Bevin hastily found his way out of the

378
00:16:35,910 --> 00:16:33,640
wright-patterson systems and thought he

379
00:16:38,970 --> 00:16:35,920
was in the clear having swooped in and

380
00:16:41,220 --> 00:16:38,980
out like a ghost but what he didn't know

381
00:16:44,310 --> 00:16:41,230
was that his actions were being

382
00:16:47,610 --> 00:16:44,320
meticulously monitored much closer than

383
00:16:50,610 --> 00:16:47,620
he'd anticipated this is when his life

384
00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:50,620
took a nasty turn with a little help

385
00:16:55,060 --> 00:16:52,810
from both local and governmental

386
00:16:58,780 --> 00:16:55,070
authorities

387
00:17:00,490 --> 00:16:58,790
it was now 1996 and Bevin was

388
00:17:03,069 --> 00:17:00,500
comfortably employed at an insurance

389
00:17:06,309 --> 00:17:03,079
agency doing computer work in his

390
00:17:08,110 --> 00:17:06,319
hometown of Cardiff Wales everything

391
00:17:10,750 --> 00:17:08,120
seemed to be going swimmingly for him

392
00:17:14,169 --> 00:17:10,760
until the day he was called into the

393
00:17:16,689 --> 00:17:14,179
office of one of his superiors but his

394
00:18:04,630 --> 00:17:16,699
superiors were nowhere to be found when

395
00:18:12,360 --> 00:18:04,640
he arrived okay six special operation

396
00:18:16,510 --> 00:18:14,530
you know they're quite heavy on the

397
00:18:17,710 --> 00:18:16,520
computer crime side of things you know

398
00:18:20,350 --> 00:18:17,720
and there

399
00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:20,360
this was their big break they finally

400
00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:22,490
got a big one you know

401
00:18:26,350 --> 00:18:24,170
these little cases they seem to have

402
00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:26,360
this knack of losing them and I finally

403
00:18:29,740 --> 00:18:28,250
know this big case that they could me

404
00:18:32,380 --> 00:18:29,750
get their teeth into get their budgets

405
00:18:34,450 --> 00:18:32,390
for truths you know the new change the

406
00:18:36,820 --> 00:18:34,460
way we can catch these hackers you know

407
00:18:38,470 --> 00:18:36,830
because I was talk about extradition to

408
00:18:40,299 --> 00:18:38,480
the States and there was a lot of

409
00:18:46,799 --> 00:18:40,309
political wrangling that was done in the

410
00:18:52,260 --> 00:18:49,960
to truly understand the complexity of

411
00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:52,270
Bevins arrests one must look back to

412
00:18:58,240 --> 00:18:54,890
1994 when he first began his hacking

413
00:19:02,470 --> 00:18:58,250
activity and how he was identified the

414
00:19:05,530 --> 00:19:02,480
DIA or Defense Information Systems

415
00:19:11,049 --> 00:19:05,540
agency was the first to discover Bevans

416
00:19:13,990 --> 00:19:11,059
hacks next came the AAF IWC or Air Force

417
00:19:15,790 --> 00:19:14,000
information warfare center the hacks

418
00:19:19,090 --> 00:19:15,800
were traced in New York city-based

419
00:19:21,130 --> 00:19:19,100
internet provider mind Fox when Bevin

420
00:19:23,500 --> 00:19:21,140
had infiltrated the systems at Goddard

421
00:19:27,310 --> 00:19:23,510
Space Center and Griffis Air Force Base

422
00:19:29,169 --> 00:19:27,320
the monitoring had begun it wasn't until

423
00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:29,179
the wright-patterson hack that the D is

424
00:19:35,260 --> 00:19:32,570
a and a fi WC thought that this person

425
00:19:38,220 --> 00:19:35,270
could potentially be an informant or

426
00:19:42,130 --> 00:19:38,230
hired hacker for a rival nation

427
00:19:45,340 --> 00:19:42,140
specifically Russia or Iraq Bevin

428
00:19:47,919 --> 00:19:45,350
however remained elusive both agencies

429
00:19:51,549 --> 00:19:47,929
found to positively identify him on

430
00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:51,559
their own instead they turned to other

431
00:19:56,860 --> 00:19:54,650
hackers the people whom Bevin had

432
00:19:59,830 --> 00:19:56,870
learned from had subsequently become his

433
00:20:01,900 --> 00:19:59,840
digital Judas spilling the beans on

434
00:20:04,169 --> 00:20:01,910
Bevins identity and assuring these

435
00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:04,179
agencies that they had finally found

436
00:20:09,260 --> 00:20:06,090
kuji

437
00:20:12,500 --> 00:20:09,270
now detained Bevan was thrown into a

438
00:20:14,900 --> 00:20:12,510
tornado of interrogations the

439
00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:14,910
authorities questioned his past his

440
00:20:20,360 --> 00:20:17,610
methods and ultimately his motives

441
00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:20,370
he was bombarded with inquisitions

442
00:20:26,120 --> 00:20:22,530
primarily connected to his acts within

443
00:20:27,950 --> 00:20:26,130
ray Patterson curiously a Secret Service

444
00:20:30,260 --> 00:20:27,960
agent had been present at the

445
00:20:32,540 --> 00:20:30,270
interrogation and while many of the

446
00:20:34,820 --> 00:20:32,550
other men were asking about war games in

447
00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:34,830
danger to weapons Bevin may have gained

448
00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:37,650
access to you this man was asking him

449
00:20:41,470 --> 00:20:39,050
questions about what he'd found

450
00:21:00,560 --> 00:20:41,480
pertaining to a little-known place

451
00:21:01,910 --> 00:21:00,570
called hangar I saw this antigravity I

452
00:21:04,250 --> 00:21:01,920
didn't see anything

453
00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:04,260
yeah the answer the idea there okay and

454
00:21:09,260 --> 00:21:06,530
carry on and it's never mentioned again

455
00:21:13,850 --> 00:21:09,270
until we get a Secret Service agent the

456
00:21:17,060 --> 00:21:13,860
same person who's come up on another

457
00:21:18,590 --> 00:21:17,070
occasion who's talking about yes we know

458
00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:18,600
about you was never had a malicious

459
00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:21,930
intent he was just after UFOs at hangar

460
00:21:27,620 --> 00:21:25,170
18 and it was strange

461
00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:27,630
straightening everyone says area 51 when

462
00:21:33,730 --> 00:21:30,450
they talk about UFOs but you know if you

463
00:21:37,130 --> 00:21:33,740
take it back hangar 18 UFO folklore

464
00:21:40,940 --> 00:21:37,140
hangar 18 known as building any

465
00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:40,950
a place called Whitefield which is where

466
00:21:47,420 --> 00:21:43,050
the bigmouth well crash is supposed to

467
00:21:48,980 --> 00:21:47,430
have been taken to you start an Oscar am

468
00:21:51,860 --> 00:21:48,990
I here one of the police asking me about

469
00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:51,870
hangar 18 why is the Secret Service

470
00:21:59,030 --> 00:21:55,410
agent mentioning hangar 18 why you know

471
00:22:01,310 --> 00:21:59,040
where's all this weird UFO dial or

472
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:01,320
antigravity indeed nonsense that's

473
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:04,410
coming from this machine from the place

474
00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:08,010
that actually made the made those well

475
00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:10,530
crash that's where the place pieces were

476
00:22:16,730 --> 00:22:14,490
taken to you start thinking that's quite

477
00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:16,740
interesting and it'd be interesting to

478
00:22:26,150 --> 00:22:22,730
see where it all ties up it may be just

479
00:22:27,650 --> 00:22:26,160
military testing it may not it could be

480
00:22:30,860 --> 00:22:27,660
information that's put there

481
00:22:32,210 --> 00:22:30,870
deliberately from me or somebody like me

482
00:22:34,910 --> 00:22:32,220
to find to get all this information

483
00:22:37,070 --> 00:22:34,920
exercise I could be that last little

484
00:22:39,020 --> 00:22:37,080
crack of evidence that they somebody

485
00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:39,030
went oh we didn't leave it on that

486
00:22:44,930 --> 00:22:41,490
machine did we you know you never know

487
00:22:48,530 --> 00:22:44,940
you never know as the pressure rained

488
00:22:51,650 --> 00:22:48,540
down on Bevan he gave his honest answers

489
00:22:54,049 --> 00:22:51,660
and he was asked point-blank if he had

490
00:22:57,740 --> 00:22:54,059
any political motivations in which he

491
00:23:00,560 --> 00:22:57,750
replied he had none clearly this was

492
00:23:04,250 --> 00:23:00,570
boiling down to a case of espionage and

493
00:23:06,799 --> 00:23:04,260
possible military implication Bevan

494
00:23:08,110 --> 00:23:06,809
remained truthful explaining that he was

495
00:23:12,020 --> 00:23:08,120
simply searching for information

496
00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:12,030
pertaining to UFOs with this the

497
00:23:17,299 --> 00:23:14,610
authorities began to ease down their

498
00:23:19,549 --> 00:23:17,309
tone becoming a bit more light as they

499
00:23:23,030 --> 00:23:19,559
begin to peg this hacker as nothing more

500
00:23:25,950 --> 00:23:23,040
than an x-files idiot

501
00:23:28,050 --> 00:23:25,960
even if Bevins motives were far more

502
00:23:30,900 --> 00:23:28,060
innocent than the authorities had first

503
00:23:33,330 --> 00:23:30,910
inferred he had still committed illegal

504
00:23:36,140 --> 00:23:33,340
activity and there had to be a decision

505
00:23:39,300 --> 00:23:36,150
on how to prosecute him for his crimes

506
00:23:42,360 --> 00:23:39,310
the United States wanted him extradited

507
00:23:45,270 --> 00:23:42,370
and put into prison but in order to do

508
00:23:48,270 --> 00:23:45,280
so the UK authorities needed specific

509
00:23:51,270 --> 00:23:48,280
information from the Americans about

510
00:23:53,820 --> 00:23:51,280
what Bevin had discovered stubborn to

511
00:23:56,070 --> 00:23:53,830
give up any evidence the US government

512
00:23:59,010 --> 00:23:56,080
gave a cold shoulder to the prosecution

513
00:24:03,000 --> 00:23:59,020
and because of this the entire case

514
00:24:06,570 --> 00:24:03,010
against Bevin was dropped in 1997 after

515
00:24:08,730 --> 00:24:06,580
almost two years of monitoring tracking

516
00:24:09,390 --> 00:24:08,740
down sources and eventually nabbing

517
00:24:11,700 --> 00:24:09,400
their man

518
00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:11,710
the US government hypocritically of let

519
00:24:17,670 --> 00:24:13,810
him go with nothing more than a stern

520
00:24:19,140 --> 00:24:17,680
slap on the wrist if Bevin ever stepped

521
00:24:23,100 --> 00:24:19,150
foot on American soil

522
00:24:25,350 --> 00:24:23,110
he'd be arrested on site with the case

523
00:24:26,220 --> 00:24:25,360
against him swept quietly under the rug

524
00:24:28,980 --> 00:24:26,230
for decades

525
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:28,990
Bevin went on with his life never

526
00:24:33,030 --> 00:24:30,970
forgetting about the detail chain of

527
00:24:36,230 --> 00:24:33,040
events that could have landed him in

528
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:36,240
prison perhaps for the rest of his life

529
00:24:42,390 --> 00:24:39,490
but in the wake of Bevins case now being

530
00:24:44,910 --> 00:24:42,400
in the public eye cyber security had a

531
00:24:47,820 --> 00:24:44,920
poster boy who seemingly could have

532
00:24:50,910 --> 00:24:47,830
caused immeasurable damage and danger to

533
00:24:52,980 --> 00:24:50,920
the world's military defenses and could

534
00:24:56,540 --> 00:24:52,990
have even caused nuclear annihilation

535
00:24:59,850 --> 00:24:56,550
all of which Bevin claims was propaganda

536
00:25:02,430 --> 00:24:59,860
exaggerated beyond comprehension simply

537
00:25:06,450 --> 00:25:02,440
to view the financial security of cyber

538
00:25:10,460 --> 00:25:06,460
crime units in the United States so in

539
00:25:13,770 --> 00:25:10,470
the end this wasn't even about UFOs or

540
00:25:14,930 --> 00:25:13,780
anti-gravity propulsion the threat of

541
00:25:19,500 --> 00:25:14,940
prison

542
00:25:22,230 --> 00:25:19,510
eventually came down to 15 years five

543
00:25:24,090 --> 00:25:22,240
years perative each sentence max but

544
00:25:26,279 --> 00:25:24,100
none of these ever been sentences like

545
00:25:28,860 --> 00:25:26,289
that but you know this was government

546
00:25:31,110 --> 00:25:28,870
stuff and there's a good chance that if

547
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:31,120
I could have been the scapegoat or the

548
00:25:35,340 --> 00:25:33,610
example then I would have I think every

549
00:25:39,090 --> 00:25:35,350
opportunity was taken to try make Nina

550
00:25:41,549 --> 00:25:39,100
you know reality is I get less for

551
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:41,559
killing somebody when it comes down to

552
00:25:46,470 --> 00:25:43,570
it you know if I can get 15 years for

553
00:25:46,889 --> 00:25:46,480
breaking into a military system and get

554
00:25:48,120 --> 00:25:46,899
12

555
00:25:51,120 --> 00:25:48,130
you must be killing somebody if that

556
00:25:53,460 --> 00:25:51,130
guarantee hates or something then it

557
00:25:57,539 --> 00:25:53,470
makes me suggest well that just shows

558
00:26:02,909 --> 00:25:57,549
how a system works people's lives mean

559
00:26:05,909 --> 00:26:02,919
nothing business is money information is

560
00:26:07,799 --> 00:26:05,919
money and money is power people that

561
00:26:09,019 --> 00:26:07,809
don't mean anything and that's the way

562
00:26:11,700 --> 00:26:09,029
the law works

563
00:26:13,860 --> 00:26:11,710
Bevin's memories of the events would

564
00:26:17,190 --> 00:26:13,870
eventually come back to haunt him in the

565
00:26:19,830 --> 00:26:17,200
form of Gary McKinnon being charged with

566
00:26:23,100 --> 00:26:19,840
almost identical hacking activities

567
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:23,110
under the handle solo MacKinnon's

568
00:26:28,830 --> 00:26:25,330
extradition loomed in the air for a

569
00:26:31,950 --> 00:26:28,840
painfully long time had MacKinnon

570
00:26:33,750 --> 00:26:31,960
learned anything from Bevin perhaps he

571
00:26:36,810 --> 00:26:33,760
wouldn't have even attempted to play

572
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:36,820
with digital fire and perhaps the race

573
00:26:42,870 --> 00:26:39,970
to uncover UFO information both hackers

574
00:26:46,019 --> 00:26:42,880
were ultimately chasing after would have

575
00:26:48,810 --> 00:26:46,029
eventually caught up to them but in the

576
00:26:51,899 --> 00:26:48,820
end Bevin was the first to see through

577
00:26:54,180 --> 00:26:51,909
the legal system how unbelievably flawed

578
00:26:57,750 --> 00:26:54,190
it was when dealing with hackers and

579
00:27:00,510 --> 00:26:57,760
perhaps even more importantly how easy

580
00:27:02,490 --> 00:27:00,520
it was to gain access not only the UFO

581
00:27:05,940 --> 00:27:02,500
information but with a few simple

582
00:27:09,010 --> 00:27:05,950
keystrokes the entire annual budget of

583
00:27:13,010 --> 00:27:09,020
government-funded cybersecurity

584
00:27:25,270 --> 00:27:13,020
so in the eyes of Bevin what exactly was

585
00:27:31,490 --> 00:27:28,520
to deal with terrorists in our Civil

586
00:27:34,010 --> 00:27:31,500
Liberties of each stripped from under

587
00:27:35,900 --> 00:27:34,020
our noses and the guise of security and

588
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:35,910
looking after us but I think people

589
00:27:39,890 --> 00:27:37,770
don't realize the hacking marrow as fast

590
00:27:41,330 --> 00:27:39,900
as a terrorist offense you know a

591
00:27:43,100 --> 00:27:41,340
suspected terrorist

592
00:27:44,630 --> 00:27:43,110
you know I've broken into somebody's

593
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:44,640
computer system I could be held

594
00:27:50,060 --> 00:27:47,450
indefinitely without trial you know and

595
00:27:52,430 --> 00:27:50,070
waiting sent me to burn a ton of obey I

596
00:27:54,770 --> 00:27:52,440
never you know I was very lucky that

597
00:28:00,890 --> 00:27:54,780
computer laws were in place but they

598
00:28:02,810 --> 00:28:00,900
were so very very malicious it's been

599
00:28:05,090 --> 00:28:02,820
agreed by all sides I never did anything

600
00:28:09,620 --> 00:28:05,100
for financial gain I never did anything

601
00:28:13,610 --> 00:28:09,630
malicious I never destroyed data so the

602
00:28:15,950 --> 00:28:13,620
model is be lucky don't get into things

603
00:28:18,799 --> 00:28:15,960
now you know

604
00:28:22,100 --> 00:28:18,809
it's just not worth it it's not worth it

605
00:28:25,519 --> 00:28:22,110
I think any crime if you're aware it's a

606
00:28:27,590 --> 00:28:25,529
crime is not worth it when you're a kid

607
00:28:29,749 --> 00:28:27,600
you don't have a lesson each other part

608
00:28:32,269 --> 00:28:29,759
of the reveals you you climb trees with

609
00:28:33,950 --> 00:28:32,279
a 20 foot 34 high and he jumped back

610
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:33,960
there because you're a kid and you can't

611
00:28:40,190 --> 00:28:35,850
you won't get credit when you're happy

612
00:28:44,750 --> 00:28:40,200
you won't get caught you know we never

613
00:28:51,289 --> 00:28:46,869
[Music]

614
00:28:54,739 --> 00:28:51,299
consequences I think maybe you should be

615
00:28:57,470 --> 00:28:54,749
very very careful either way these men

616
00:29:00,560 --> 00:28:57,480
although arrogant in their own ways

617
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:00,570
paved a path for civilians who will stop

618
00:29:06,649 --> 00:29:03,690
at nothing to uncover a truth that they

619
00:29:21,859 --> 00:29:06,659
feel is being so deeply hidden from the

620
00:29:24,259 --> 00:29:21,869
public but I personally wanted to know

621
00:29:27,399 --> 00:29:24,269
how listeners felt about hacking into

622
00:29:31,930 --> 00:29:27,409
systems to gain information on UFOs as

623
00:29:34,669 --> 00:29:31,940
you can imagine the responses were mixed

624
00:29:36,169 --> 00:29:34,679
when asked if listeners thought it was

625
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:36,179
okay to do these hacks to get

626
00:29:42,879 --> 00:29:39,570
information Kris said yes we as

627
00:29:46,159 --> 00:29:42,889
taxpayers paid for it and I want to know

628
00:29:48,169 --> 00:29:46,169
Jay says hell yeah it shouldn't be a

629
00:29:51,379 --> 00:29:48,179
secret it's our money

630
00:29:53,899 --> 00:29:51,389
Theresa says yes because we the people

631
00:29:55,549 --> 00:29:53,909
have a given right to know let the chips

632
00:29:59,119 --> 00:29:55,559
fall where they may

633
00:30:02,570 --> 00:29:59,129
Scott says turnabout is fair play I say

634
00:30:05,149 --> 00:30:02,580
they spy on us we spy right back it's

635
00:30:07,190 --> 00:30:05,159
what we do in the military always been

636
00:30:09,259 --> 00:30:07,200
that way but now that the entire

637
00:30:11,629 --> 00:30:09,269
population on earth is able to attempt

638
00:30:14,090 --> 00:30:11,639
breach there's no stopping it

639
00:30:17,779 --> 00:30:14,100
felony or not it's just the way things

640
00:30:20,119 --> 00:30:17,789
are Jamie says it should be okay to do

641
00:30:22,399 --> 00:30:20,129
it double standards from all governments

642
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:22,409
all over the world I'm still a fan of

643
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:24,450
NASA because I like anything to do with

644
00:30:27,549 --> 00:30:26,970
space but they have without a doubt been

645
00:30:30,190 --> 00:30:27,559
holding back

646
00:30:31,989 --> 00:30:30,200
the truth for a long long time why

647
00:30:34,269 --> 00:30:31,999
should they be allowed to do that I

648
00:30:37,629 --> 00:30:34,279
would suspect they have no choice but to

649
00:30:40,779 --> 00:30:37,639
do it but that's not our problem so

650
00:30:43,060 --> 00:30:40,789
let's all rise up and take them on but

651
00:30:46,090 --> 00:30:43,070
other listeners felt very differently

652
00:30:47,860 --> 00:30:46,100
Michael stinks you mean to break the law

653
00:30:50,409 --> 00:30:47,870
not a good idea

654
00:30:52,509 --> 00:30:50,419
it is also morally wrong just as it

655
00:30:56,230 --> 00:30:52,519
would be if someone hacked a researchers

656
00:30:58,090 --> 00:30:56,240
computer Kiran says no it would be nice

657
00:31:01,090 --> 00:30:58,100
to have a medium and share some stuff

658
00:31:03,159 --> 00:31:01,100
legally at the same point there's a lot

659
00:31:05,049 --> 00:31:03,169
of sensitive information that I can

660
00:31:07,539 --> 00:31:05,059
understand why the military keeps it

661
00:31:10,359 --> 00:31:07,549
secret but I guess I really don't care

662
00:31:12,899 --> 00:31:10,369
nothing good has come of prior hacking

663
00:31:16,139 --> 00:31:12,909
that was a positive use for the public

664
00:31:18,549 --> 00:31:16,149
stella says it's tempting but no

665
00:31:21,039 --> 00:31:18,559
truthfully what are we going to do if we

666
00:31:23,619 --> 00:31:21,049
find it to be a cover-up we can't do

667
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:23,629
much Chris says I for one do not

668
00:31:29,139 --> 00:31:25,970
advocate for committing felonies

669
00:31:31,570 --> 00:31:29,149
Kevin says no aside from being illegal

670
00:31:34,029 --> 00:31:31,580
any information would be easily denied

671
00:31:35,799 --> 00:31:34,039
and not credible in my opinion I would

672
00:31:39,369 --> 00:31:35,809
rather wait for an official announcement

673
00:31:41,529 --> 00:31:39,379
backed by evidence Ted says if they want

674
00:31:44,169 --> 00:31:41,539
it secret I am not second-guessing them

675
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:44,179
these things manifest everywhere we

676
00:31:47,769 --> 00:31:46,730
don't need military validation it is

677
00:31:50,889 --> 00:31:47,779
what it is

678
00:31:53,259 --> 00:31:50,899
Bruce adds I'm fine with whistleblowers

679
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:53,269
exposing governmental malfeasance like

680
00:31:57,669 --> 00:31:55,610
Snowden or Manning even if it means

681
00:31:59,379 --> 00:31:57,679
leaking classified documents that can

682
00:32:02,139 --> 00:31:59,389
embarrass the government however

683
00:32:04,509 --> 00:32:02,149
breaking into a system damaging that

684
00:32:08,169 --> 00:32:04,519
system and exposing projects you have no

685
00:32:10,930 --> 00:32:08,179
understanding of is very dangerous jason

686
00:32:13,239 --> 00:32:10,940
says nope firm believer in the rule of

687
00:32:15,369 --> 00:32:13,249
law for a society to function

688
00:32:17,919 --> 00:32:15,379
we can't individually pick and choose

689
00:32:21,190 --> 00:32:17,929
which laws we follow based on our

690
00:32:22,930 --> 00:32:21,200
personal interests rocky says I do not

691
00:32:25,029 --> 00:32:22,940
support the committing of a crime in

692
00:32:27,460 --> 00:32:25,039
order to fulfill someone's unproven

693
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:27,470
allegations we're talking about hacking

694
00:32:32,950 --> 00:32:29,570
into a group that likely has zero

695
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:32,960
evidence an actual et in the sense that

696
00:32:37,779 --> 00:32:35,570
we wish they did I have a very hard time

697
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:37,789
believing NASA an organization

698
00:32:40,910 --> 00:32:38,610
continually

699
00:32:42,740 --> 00:32:40,920
ashlee short of cash would hide the

700
00:32:44,690 --> 00:32:42,750
reality of the one thing that would

701
00:32:48,289 --> 00:32:44,700
guarantee their funding would increase

702
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:48,299
to lunatic levels Paul says the law is

703
00:32:53,210 --> 00:32:50,970
not final moral authority there are

704
00:32:55,310 --> 00:32:53,220
plenty of counter examples so sometimes

705
00:32:57,860 --> 00:32:55,320
the right thing to do is to break the

706
00:32:59,900 --> 00:32:57,870
law but you must understand there will

707
00:33:02,419 --> 00:32:59,910
be consequences this should be

708
00:33:04,580 --> 00:33:02,429
considered very carefully I do not

709
00:33:07,039 --> 00:33:04,590
support hacking into government systems

710
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:07,049
simply to see what might be there this

711
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:09,330
is foolish and highly unlikely to yield

712
00:33:14,930 --> 00:33:11,730
anything except a prison sentence I

713
00:33:17,090 --> 00:33:14,940
can't see a moral justification for it

714
00:33:19,220 --> 00:33:17,100
it is possible to conceive of

715
00:33:21,470 --> 00:33:19,230
circumstances however when it would be

716
00:33:23,270 --> 00:33:21,480
the right thing to do and might even

717
00:33:27,350 --> 00:33:23,280
support the rule of law rather than

718
00:33:29,090 --> 00:33:27,360
diminish it Ryan says no I advocate

719
00:33:31,370 --> 00:33:29,100
pressuring the government through legal

720
00:33:34,850 --> 00:33:31,380
means to get them to reveal what they

721
00:33:38,570 --> 00:33:34,860
know about the UFO presence Lehrer also

722
00:33:41,630 --> 00:33:38,580
says no never as investigators there has

723
00:33:43,970 --> 00:33:41,640
to be limits and honor the answers must

724
00:33:49,310 --> 00:33:43,980
be obtained through hard work and a

725
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:49,320
community and this work is worth it so

726
00:33:54,700 --> 00:33:52,290
well this is very murky territory

727
00:33:57,799 --> 00:33:54,710
I find myself caught in a moral dilemma

728
00:33:59,750 --> 00:33:57,809
just like so many I would love to see

729
00:34:02,900 --> 00:33:59,760
information about UFOs brought to the

730
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:02,910
public by NASA or intelligence agencies

731
00:34:07,940 --> 00:34:05,490
I really would but when it comes to

732
00:34:12,290 --> 00:34:07,950
actually breaking the law to do so I

733
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:12,300
have a problem with that we have law for

734
00:34:17,780 --> 00:34:14,970
a reason but as some may argue laws

735
00:34:20,659 --> 00:34:17,790
aren't always moral or for the benefit

736
00:34:22,460 --> 00:34:20,669
of everyone does the public deserve to

737
00:34:27,830 --> 00:34:22,470
know all that the government knows about

738
00:34:29,899 --> 00:34:27,840
UFOs yes and maybe no there are so many

739
00:34:32,389 --> 00:34:29,909
secrets that have come and gone when it

740
00:34:34,159 --> 00:34:32,399
comes to national security that we would

741
00:34:37,639 --> 00:34:34,169
never be able to fully disseminate its

742
00:34:40,190 --> 00:34:37,649
purpose its reason for secrecy or the

743
00:34:43,010 --> 00:34:40,200
outcome if that information ever were to

744
00:34:45,260 --> 00:34:43,020
be leaked to the public history would be

745
00:34:47,210 --> 00:34:45,270
completely different had enemies known

746
00:34:49,010 --> 00:34:47,220
we were coming history would be

747
00:34:51,559 --> 00:34:49,020
completely different if the Roswell

748
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:51,569
daily records headline of a crash did

749
00:34:56,299 --> 00:34:54,210
in the deserts in 1947 had remained

750
00:35:00,200 --> 00:34:56,309
unredacted to promote the weather

751
00:35:03,230 --> 00:35:00,210
balloon theory so much would change if

752
00:35:05,269 --> 00:35:03,240
secrets were spilled the issue of

753
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:05,279
hacking is more prevalent in today's

754
00:35:10,849 --> 00:35:08,490
world than ever before with an official

755
00:35:12,500 --> 00:35:10,859
investigation being undertaken right now

756
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:12,510
in the United States concerning

757
00:35:18,190 --> 00:35:15,210
presidential campaign hacking it's clear

758
00:35:21,710 --> 00:35:18,200
that hacking is an important issue with

759
00:35:23,809 --> 00:35:21,720
real-world consequences and while

760
00:35:25,910 --> 00:35:23,819
MacKinnon and Bevin may both believe

761
00:35:28,549 --> 00:35:25,920
that their crimes were inflated beyond

762
00:35:31,009 --> 00:35:28,559
comprehension many believe they should

763
00:35:32,839 --> 00:35:31,019
have been punished they claimed they

764
00:35:36,500 --> 00:35:32,849
were merely searching for information

765
00:35:38,569 --> 00:35:36,510
pertaining to UFOs but in doing so they

766
00:35:41,299 --> 00:35:38,579
easily could have uncovered information

767
00:35:44,740 --> 00:35:41,309
that if leaked could change the entire

768
00:35:46,660 --> 00:35:44,750
future of humankind both for good and

769
00:35:50,029 --> 00:35:46,670
for bad

770
00:35:52,849 --> 00:35:50,039
no matter your thoughts on hacking solo

771
00:35:54,829 --> 00:35:52,859
and Coogi are still whispered on the

772
00:35:57,950 --> 00:35:54,839
digital lips of those who continue to

773
00:36:01,220 --> 00:35:57,960
breach cybersecurity whether for fun

774
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:01,230
whether for benefit or for motives we

775
00:36:07,759 --> 00:36:04,410
can't even imagine we live in an age

776
00:36:11,660 --> 00:36:07,769
where anything can change with a swipe a

777
00:36:14,599 --> 00:36:11,670
keystroke or even a voice command it's

778
00:36:17,420 --> 00:36:14,609
exciting and it's terrifying but in the

779
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:17,430
end it is the world we live in

780
00:36:24,079 --> 00:36:21,210
be careful out there read the fine print

781
00:36:26,720 --> 00:36:24,089
of your social networks protect your

782
00:36:28,910 --> 00:36:26,730
information as best you can because

783
00:36:31,430 --> 00:36:28,920
somewhere deep in cyberspace

784
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:31,440
there are many coochies and solos

785
00:36:45,210 --> 00:36:43,440
somewhere in the skies is produced by

786
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:45,220
Third Kind productions in association

787
00:36:48,930 --> 00:36:47,410
with the entertainment one podcast